Hypothetical Using HC-8+ with VSA question

[HauntedWolf]

Hi gang,

I am exploring options on how to remove my laptop from my Halloween display.  I am using VSA to control the whole thing.  The HC-8+ seems to be an option. 

Here is what my display currently contains:

(2) 3-axis skulls (4 servos each) - currently controlled through a Prop-2
(1) video projector for pumpkin projections
(3) USB Soundcards used to distribute audio to skulls, pumpkins, and joketellers.  Pumpkin audio is in the video files I use.
(8 ) channels of DMX controlled RBG lighting - I have an Open-DMX adapter that plugs into one of my USB ports.  I will likely be adding more channels.
(1) Scary Terry driven talking skull (1 of my Joketellers)
(1) Lighting Box/Color Organ (2nd Joketeller)

The Joketellers are not controlled by the laptop other than the audio file is directed to them.  The Scary Terry and Lightning Box react to the audio only.

I have several routines that are played using Monkey Basic's Helmsman.  Most routines are either joketellers, skulls, or pumpkins, but I do have a couple that use all 3.  RGB lights are used in all routines.

I have only started looking at options.  Obviously the RAPU from Brookshire will do some of what I need, but it does not support video in any way and only has 1 stereo output.  And it Costs $320.


Here are my questions:

If I want to take the laptop out of the display, what do I need to replace it? 
Is HC-8+ able to handle the video in some way...trigger another device maybe?  What should I look for?
Since I have 3 audio areas, I believe I'll need 3 AP-16s, right? 
For the skulls, would an HC-8+ replace the Prop-2 or talk to the Prop-2?  How many channels on an HC-8+ will I need?
Does the DMX control take up 1 channel on the HC-8+ or 1 channel on the HC-8+ for each DMX channel?

Lastly, am I crazy to do this?   ...probably.   ;)

Thanks all!  I'm sure I've forgotten some detail that will be important, but I would love any suggestions or insights you might have.

[JonnyMac]

For review, HC-8+ features:

* 8 DC outputs
* 8 TTL inputs
* 1 TTL Serial IO pin
* RS-485 port (2- or 4-wire compatible)
* 4-bit option port that can be used for microSD card

We have software used by many (including Legoland which is really going to town with it) that allows you to develop shows using Vixen and play them live through the HC-8+ during the development cycle. We call this the "streamer" program. Show data is pumped into the HC-8+ via the programming port (using a Prop-Plug)

If one needs more than eight outputs then a second HC-8+ can be connected to the first via the RS-485 port. Part of the streamer code is a DMX output that takes everything pumped into it and rebroadcasts it via DMX. This allows off-the-shelf HC-8+ controllers and other DMX-compatible devices to come under control (remember, the SM switch on the HC-8+ puts it into DMX mode when the factory program is running).

In the scheme of things one can create a large controller from several smaller ones, and toss in other DMX devices (lights, foggers, etc.).

When one is happy with the show it is exported to binary format and saved to a microSD card. The "player" program is loaded into the master HC-8+. It has two modes: direct access and random. In direct access, the inputs (IN0..IN7) are used to play a show (show00.bin ... show07.bin) and when a show plays, the [master] HC-8+ will send a serial command out of the SIO header to a connected AP-16+ to play the associated audio (sfx00.wav ... sfx07.wav). In random mode, only IN0 is used, and one can have up to 16 files as this still allows for manual testing on the AP-16+ using normal naming conventions.

Now... all of this is using very straightforward technology. The HC-8+ is very powerful, and with a bit of effort to learn how to code in Spin, one could do much more sophisticated control. Using the RS-485 and a bi-directional protocol, for example, the master HC-8+ could get sensor inputs from remote HC-8+s. We have a protocol that I developed called Human Friendly Control Protocol that one customer used with several HC-8+s and a computer in a networked gaming system. We're presently using that same protocol in a contract project for a company that makes road signs.

You know me, and I tend to speak bluntly. Of course you can do the things you want to do -- but I think it's up to you digging in and learning to program the HC-8+ at its core. And, yes, we'll help. To get to kind of sophistication that you're after without the kind of programming I believe is required means buying into expensive show control systems that will run you 10s of thousands of dollars.

We deliberately made the HC-8+ hackable so that those of us on a budget don't have to go that route. Yes, it's more work for us, but it's also more reward for the creations produced.

[JonnyMac]

BTW... you *can* use VSA but we suggest you switch to Vixen. It has much better support, and the author works with us to produce modules that allow us to do the the things I shared above. When I contacted Brookshire with suggestions that would improve VSA (especially in the area of data export), the author agreed and would do them if I paid for his programming time! Needless to say, I only open VSA when forced to in support of one of our customers.

[HauntedWolf]

We have software used by many (including Legoland which is really going to town with it) that allows you to develop shows using Vixen and play them live through the HC-8+ during the development cycle. We call this the "streamer" program. Show data is pumped into the HC-8+ via the programming port (using a Prop-Plug)

That is a cool feature.  Sounds like the way VSA works now, the show is played and pushed through my hardware.

If one needs more than eight outputs then a second HC-8+ can be connected to the first via the RS-485 port. Part of the streamer code is a DMX output that takes everything pumped into it and rebroadcasts it via DMX. This allows off-the-shelf HC-8+ controllers and other DMX-compatible devices to come under control (remember, the SM switch on the HC-8+ puts it into DMX mode when the factory program is running).

So you are saying that the HC-8+ itself in DMX addressable?  Would all the DMX controlled stuff would just need one of the HC-8+ outputs?   ...just trying to wrap my haed around all this.

When one is happy with the show it is exported to binary format and saved to a microSD card. The "player" program is loaded into the master HC-8+. It has two modes: direct access and random. In direct access, the inputs (IN0..IN7) are used to play a show (show00.bin ... show07.bin) and when a show plays, the [master] HC-8+ will send a serial command out of the SIO header to a connected AP-16+ to play the associated audio (sfx00.wav ... sfx07.wav). In random mode, only IN0 is used, and one can have up to 16 files as this still allows for manual testing on the AP-16+ using normal naming conventions.

Is it possible to run shows without triggers?  Right now my show is a continuously running thing in my front yard with no triggers.  Is there a limit to the number of routines that can be played?  Your comment seems to indicate that 8 is the limit.

Now... all of this is using very straightforward technology. The HC-8+ is very powerful, and with a bit of effort to learn how to code in Spin, one could do much more sophisticated control. Using the RS-485 and a bi-directional protocol, for example, the master HC-8+ could get sensor inputs from remote HC-8+s. We have a protocol that I developed called Human Friendly Control Protocol that one customer used with several HC-8+s and a computer in a networked gaming system. We're presently using that same protocol in a contract project for a company that makes road signs.

You know me, and I tend to speak bluntly. Of course you can do the things you want to do -- but I think it's up to you digging in and learning to program the HC-8+ at its core. And, yes, we'll help. To get to kind of sophistication that you're after without the kind of programming I believe is required means buying into expensive show control systems that will run you 10s of thousands of dollars.

We deliberately made the HC-8+ hackable so that those of us on a budget don't have to go that route. Yes, it's more work for us, but it's also more reward for the creations produced.

I love bluntness!  Do you have a recommended starting point for Spin?  I'm just trying to get an idea of how big of an elephant I'm going to need to eat (one bite at a time, of course).

I still have some unanswered questions:

What about video playback?  What options do I have?  Currently I use a little EyeClops projector plugged into the laptop.  What would be needed to support video playback?
Would you recommend that an HC-8+ replace the Prop-2 I am currently using or just talk to it?

Thanks for all the help!!!!

[HauntedWolf]

BTW... you *can* use VSA but we suggest you switch to Vixen. It has much better support, and the author works with us to produce modules that allow us to do the the things I shared above. When I contacted Brookshire with suggestions that would improve VSA (especially in the area of data export), the author agreed and would do them if I paid for his programming time! Needless to say, I only open VSA when forced to in support of one of our customers.

I understand completely!  My biggest hangup is the fact that I already have the routines in VSA...not to mention the $$$ I plopped down for it.  ;)

Is there an easy way to convert VSA routines to Vixen?

[JonnyMac]

Please download and look over the HC-8+ docs; it will help.
-- http://www.efx-tek.com/downloads/hc-8_docs.pdf

So you are saying that the HC-8+ itself in DMX addressable?  Would all the DMX controlled stuff would just need one of the HC-8+ outputs?   ...just trying to wrap my haed around all this.

Yes. Is now. Always has been (see page 8 of the docs). The RS-485 port at the top can be used to receive DMX (as the factory software allows) or transmit DMX as the streamer and player programs do. RS-485 is a special circuit; this does not consume any of the outputs. And, as I mentioned previously, you can run other protocols over RS-485.

Is it possible to run shows without triggers?  Right now my show is a continuously running thing in my front yard with no triggers.  Is there a limit to the number of routines that can be played?  Your comment seems to indicate that 8 is the limit.

If you want to use my software, then you could run in random mode and just put a shunt on IN0 to create a constantly triggered state. The player program uses the DMX switch to create a delay between shows so you can insert a break, even when creating a constant trigger.

As I already pointed out... the player program supports eight direct access shows because that's how many inputs we have on the HC-8+. In random mode we limit to 16 so that you can verify the audio in on the AP-16+ manually (using SELECT switch and START button).

Remember, this is with my code, as-is. If you'll take the time to learn to program in Spin, you can do anything. This is precisely why we encourage hacking the HC-8+.

Do you have a recommended starting point for Spin?

Start by downloading the Propeller Tool from Parallax. In the Help file you'll find the Propeller Education Kit documenation. It's pretty good, though it does teach some bad habits that irritate me. In the top of this forum you'll find a starter program that you can use for projects. As you need specialty modules (e.g., DMX in or out) we will share them with you.

Keep in mind that we use Spin to program our products. By learning it, you can do the kinds of things we do.

What about video playback?

You'll need to find a digial player that can take a trigger. One of the outputs from the HC-8+ can be used to provide the trigger. If the trigger is dry-contact, you can use an RC-2 plugged into the HC-8+.

Would you recommend that an HC-8+ replace the Prop-2

Yes, if eight outputs is enough. Using an HC-8+ means you can talk directly to it on a network. Remember, once you learn Spin you may want to create a custom control system that allows controllers to pass information between each other.

My biggest hangup is the fact that I already have the routines in VSA...not to mention the $$$ I plopped down for it.

Well, you're time per hour is worth more than what you paid for VSA so that seems like completely moot point.

Is there an easy way to convert VSA routines to Vixen?

No. You *could* learn to program in Spin, write a routine that reads the VSA file (I've posted on this previously), then export it in Vixen format and read it back into Vixen. Couple things to note here: 1) Why handcuff yourself with what you have. Start over. Build a better show. 2) We have export and import routines for Vixen because we get great support from its author, who doesn't charge us for the software in the first place! Is it perfect? No. But neither is VSA. The great thing with Vixen is know that if we need support, we can get it.

[HauntedWolf]

Awesome!  Thanks for all the tips Jon!  I'll go start my homework now!   ;D

[JonnyMac]

Excellent. Again, I want to emphasize that learning to program the HC-8+ will serve you well. Yes, it will take some effort, but so did learning how to build props if the first place. The difference is that the HC-8+ is far easier to re-deploy with new code than any physical prop we build.

Here are some "Hollywood" projects I coded for our friend and customer, Steve Wang (look him up on IMDb.com if you haven't heard of him).

Ziggs Character for Riot Games (League of Legends)
-- http://www.efx-tek.com/php/smf/index.php?topic=2023.0

Tryndamere, Rzye, and Katarina Characters for Riot Games (League of Legends)
-- http://www.efx-tek.com/php/smf/index.php?topic=1943.0
-- Tryadmere uses one HC-8+ for lighting control (jewels and eyes: 7 total outputs)
-- Ryze uses two HC-8s: one for eyes and base, the second in the "spell globe" controlling 95 RGB LEDs (WS2801)
-- Katerina uses two HC-8s linked via DMX to create a single, 16-output controller

Steve's team is presently working on another display that will be done around the end of the month -- it will be using an HC-8+ master and DMX products.